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Chris R
Mary's Servant
USA
259 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 02 2008 : 10:00:05 PM
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I'm usually not one to kick around doomsday stuff, but I saw a TV special about this and it was at the very least intriguing.
Here's a website that explores the matter in some depth:
http://www.december212012.com/index.shtml
Freaky... Ain't it?
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Chris R
Mary's Servant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 9:49:13 PM
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| C'moooonnnnnn.... Nobody is intrigued by this??? |
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Tee
Mary's Servant
USA
140 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 12:58:29 PM
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Sorry, having spent over 10 years in the Pentacostal church as soon as I see doomsday I swich off. I try to read all the posts and so that's why I read this one, but going through all that then the Y2K stuff that went on, I just refuse to get worked up or even belive in much of it anymore. I know Christ knows when I'll die, and so I leave the details up to him. :)
God Bless,
~Tee
"they must seek to fulfill their daily duties, that is as mothers and wives in an exemplary manner of holiness by pursuing the contemplative life in their homes..." ~ 3rd basic tenet of Apostolate of Holy Motherhood |
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Chris R
Mary's Servant
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 5:36:11 PM
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| Well, good to know someone is out there just the same. I'm not much on doomsday stuff myself, but this one just has so many adherents from such diverse sources that I find it intriguing (even a little compelling). |
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Stormy
Administrator
USA
736 Posts |
Posted - Mar 14 2008 : 02:01:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris R
Well, good to know someone is out there just the same. I'm not much on doomsday stuff myself, but this one just has so many adherents from such diverse sources that I find it intriguing (even a little compelling).
Not dooms day ....But a New Era......
http://mariancatholicforum.forumco.com/forum~FORUM_ID~29.asp
Its happening, there are few that are watching current events and understand All leads to Garabandal.
All explained in the Blue Book from MMP
http://mariancatholicforum.forumco.com/forum~FORUM_ID~31.asp
BUT! If we follow the mesages of Our Lady of America we may be able to mitigate Our Father's just anger.
http://mariancatholicforum.forumco.com/forum~FORUM_ID~36.asp
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Going to Communion every day for so many years! Anybody else would be a saint by now, you told me, and I ... I'm always the same! Son, I replied, keep up your daily Communion, and think: what would I be if I had not gone?
-- St. Josemaria Escriva: The Way
Come Holy Spirit ...Come by the means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved Spouse. |
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Lola
Formation
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2008 : 5:31:55 PM
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Hello Chris, I think an even more interesting speculation is that on Holy Thursday of next year is a likely date for the "Illumination of conscience". I read that but I'm afraid I can't remember the source . I believe that it might be Michael Brown of Spirit Daily but don't quote me. The interesting thing is that it is to happen on the feast of an Eucharistic saint but withing certain months and he gives all of his reasons by his research which make sense. I hope to see come to pass as soon as that if not sooner. Mark Mallett is an excellent source with his Spiritual Food emails. He speaks lately with great urgency and you can find this same urgency at HolyLove.org. There are all kinds of reasons why I can't buy into the 'end' in 2012 but like Stormy says it is a New Era. Pray always for discernment. From Holy Love Messages: "Father, Son and Holy Spirit, grant me --Temperance not to accept everything at face value. Prudence to search out the truth. Wisdom to recognize the truth. Amen." "I will help you. I am your Strength. I will not abandon you, if you believe." - Jesus.
YSIC,
Lola |
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JohnF
Mary's Servant
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2008 : 5:46:16 PM
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Doomsday writing has been correctly dubbed "Christian Porn."
Talk of The Final Days seems to be almost sexually arousing to some; fantasies of sadism, fear, "rapture," and so on.
Let's just take life one day at a time with Jesus and leave the porn to Larry Flynt and Tim LaHaye.
(Editor's note: The author of this post does not consider Church approved Marian messages to be examples of "doomsday porn.")
John
We must not doubt for even a moment,
But have trust in the power of God's mercy.
-Saint Faustina |
Edited by - JohnF on Apr 08 2008 2:36:01 PM |
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Stormy
Administrator
USA
736 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 09:23:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnF
Doomsday writing has been correctly dubbed "Christian Porn."
Talk of The Final Days seems to be almost sexually arousing to some; fantasies of sadism, fear, "rapture," and so on.
Let's just take life one day at a time with Jesus and leave the porn to Larry Flynt and Tim LaHaye.
John
We must not doubt for even a moment,
But have trust in the power of God's mercy.
-Saint Faustina
John,
I think that is a bad analogy, I do not think calling the messages of Love from the Blessed Mother porn is a good idea.
It is an act of Love to point out to our brothers and sisters that their Heavenly Mother has been warning us since 1917.
Souls were falling like snowflakes into hell in 1917 John, it must be a blizzard today.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Going to Communion every day for so many years! Anybody else would be a saint by now, you told me, and I ... I'm always the same! Son, I replied, keep up your daily Communion, and think: what would I be if I had not gone?
-- St. Josemaria Escriva: The Way
Come Holy Spirit ...Come by the means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved Spouse. |
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JohnF
Mary's Servant
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 12:03:41 PM
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the messages of Love from the Blessed Mother
Thank you.
I was referring to doomsayers, the 2012 website, and Tim LaHaye, which I consider sadistic pornography.
The Blessed Mother knows how I feel about her.
John
We must not doubt for even a moment,
But have trust in the power of God's mercy.
-Saint Faustina |
Edited by - JohnF on Apr 08 2008 12:10:03 PM |
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Stormy
Administrator
USA
736 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 3:36:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnF
the messages of Love from the Blessed Mother
Thank you.
I was referring to doomsayers, the 2012 website, and Tim LaHaye, which I consider sadistic pornography.
The Blessed Mother knows how I feel about her.
John
We must not doubt for even a moment,
But have trust in the power of God's mercy.
-Saint Faustina
So did we ...... Just didn't want any confusion. 
quote:
(Editor's note: The author of this post does not consider Church approved Marian messages to be examples of "doomsday porn.")
John
So now I have to ask .....What do you consider "Church Approved" ?
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Going to Communion every day for so many years! Anybody else would be a saint by now, you told me, and I ... I'm always the same! Son, I replied, keep up your daily Communion, and think: what would I be if I had not gone?
-- St. Josemaria Escriva: The Way
Come Holy Spirit ...Come by the means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved Spouse. |
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n/a
deleted
959 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 5:06:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lola
Hello Chris, I think an even more interesting speculation is that on Holy Thursday of next year is a likely date for the "Illumination of conscience". I read that but I'm afraid I can't remember the source. I believe that it might be Michael Brown of Spirit Daily but don't quote me. The interesting thing is that it is to happen on the feast of an Eucharistic saint but withing certain months and he gives all of his reasons by his research which make sense. I hope to see come to pass as soon as that if not sooner. Mark Mallett is an excellent source with his Spiritual Food emails. He speaks lately with great urgency and you can find this same urgency at HolyLove.org. There are all kinds of reasons why I can't buy into the 'end' in 2012 but like Stormy says it is a New Era. Pray always for discernment. From Holy Love Messages: "Father, Son and Holy Spirit, grant me --Temperance not to accept everything at face value. Prudence to search out the truth. Wisdom to recognize the truth. Amen." "I will help you. I am your Strength. I will not abandon you, if you believe." - Jesus.
YSIC,
Lola
The Missionary Servants of Holy Love is one of several names this group has used over the years. The basis of the organization is to promote the alleged locutions of Maureen Sweeney from Cleveland, Ohio.
According to the Diocese, Maureen Sweeney and this group have not asked for direction or approval from the diocese. A copy of the letter from the Diocese is found here.
It is a little troubling that Sweeney is not asking for direction or approval from the Bishop. They rather disingenuously assert that an organization can exist without approval from the Bishop. That is true and there is nothing wrong with that, but this organization is about doing some apostolate, but about promoting a Private Revelation. That changes the game.
Private Revelations need to always be under the scrutiny of the Church. Anyone with private revelations needs to actively seek direction and approval from their bishops. Sweeney does not, and is highly critical of their bishop. This does not bone well for a legitimate visionary.
Bottomline: this visionary has no approval at any level of the Church and seems to be hostile whenever the Bishop offers a negative view.
Given all this, the suggestion would be that this visionary is not legit. Obedience and respect to the bishop is the first test of a true visionary.
In any event, this alleged visionary has no support of her bishop and does not appear to care. BEWARE.
I would not recommend involvement in this group nor in Sweeney.
In general, I recommend to people to stop looking for private revelations. There is always a danger in searching around for private revelations. We already have enough of them that are approved by the Church. Looking for more I think says something if lacking in faith of the searcher. Our faith already has all that it needs to build and grow in that faith through the Public Revelation, the Church, the Saints, and only as an aside, the few approved private revelations.
Besides, there is NO private revelation, including approved one, including Fatima, that are needed for our faith or required for belief. The principles taught by 99% of all the "messages" I have ever read from "visionaries" of any sort can be found in the Bible.
If people invested the time they spend reading this or that visionary into reading the Bible, they would be Bible scholars.
I know the Bible relatively well. That is why I can recognize Biblical notions found in alleged messages. Since I already know the Bible principles, there is no purpose or reason to read alleged messages from alleged visionaries.
The only "message" that counts is the infallible message of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And with those infallible messages we don't have to worry about a false visionary.
I propose that people start reading and studying the Bible -- GOD'S MESSAGE, and forget about all these alleged private revelations that have no approval from the Church (including Medjugorje) and start putting our nose in the message of the Bible, God's love letter to us.
The greatest pilgrimage of all is to your local parish to kneel in devotion to our Lord in the Sacred Sacrament reserved in the Tabernacle.
Grace Mizzi
www.mmponline.org
Send Oh Lord Holy Apostles into your church“Christ has no body but yours, no hands butyours, no feet but yours.Yours are the eyes through which Christ’scompassion must look upon the world.Yours are the feet with which He is to go about
doing good.Yours are the hands with which He is to bless us now.”St. Theresa of Avila |
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JohnF
Mary's Servant
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 5:54:19 PM
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So now I have to ask .....What do you consider "Church Approved" ?
Allow me to quote Colin B. Donovan, STL:
Today there are a myriad of alleged private revelations and apparitions vying for the attention of the faithful. None have been definitively judged by the Holy See, some have been approved by local authority (e.g. Akita, Cuapa, Betania), others have been found lacking in supernaturality (e.g. Medjugorje, Garabandal), some few have been condemned (e.g. Necedah, Bayside) and finally, the vast majority have received no attention from Church authorities whatsoever.
The first responsibility of the faithful is to remain firmly established in the faith, in the sacraments and in communion with the Pope and bishops. Any Catholic who gives their primary attention to alleged private revelation at the expense of Sacred Scripture, the teaching of the Church (especially the Catechism), sacramental practice, prayer and fidelity to Church authority is off course.
The running after spiritual phenomena, such as alleged revelations, is condemned by St. John of the Cross as spiritual avarice. This means that pious souls who would be repulsed by crude materialistic greed think nothing of being greedy to know revelations and prophecies.
An exclusive, or even a predominant attention to these matters (especially apocalyptic ones), cannot help but produce an unbalanced spirituality.
Should the Church condemn some favorite alleged revelation such a person may find themselves believing more in it than in the supernatural authority of the Church. The devil will have succeeded in what he had set out to do.
The second responsibility is to have regard, in the first place, for those private revelations and apparitions approved by the Church. Within a balanced practice of the faith the edifying content of approved private revelations can be a motive for deeper piety and fidelity to the Gospel. God has chosen to give guidance to the Church in particular eras in this way and we would, as I noted above, be imprudent to disregard altogether what are credibly His prophetic interventions in the life of His Church.
Finally, there are many other private revelations that have not received Church approval. The Second Vatican Council urges us to discern the Spirit in the case of such extraordinary graces [Lumen gentium 12], which means being neither gullible or incredulous, but subjecting them to all relevant theological and human tests of credibility. Clearly, in this the judgment of the local bishop is the key element of such a discernment as I noted above. Often enough, unfortunately, the laity are left to make this determination themselves, relying on the testimony of the events, the judgment of holy and orthodox priests and common sense. It must always be kept in mind that however credible and reasonable such revelations seem to be, God would never ask one to separate oneself from the faith and discipline of the Church to follow it.
http://ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm
John
We must not doubt for even a moment,
But have trust in the power of God's mercy.
-Saint Faustina |
Edited by - JohnF on Apr 08 2008 5:56:07 PM |
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JohnF
Mary's Servant
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 8:04:35 PM
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The principles taught by 99% of all the "messages" I have ever read from "visionaries" of any sort can be found in the Bible.
Absolutely. If the messages were not in harmony with Biblical truth, the Church would not approve them.
The Bible is a much more important source of revelation than Fatima and the others.
If the Bible were not more important, the Church would have Fatima readings in place of Gospel readings during Mass. Let's hope that doesn't happen.
John
We must not doubt for even a moment,
But have trust in the power of God's mercy.
-Saint Faustina |
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n/a
deleted
959 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2008 : 8:44:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnF
So now I have to ask .....What do you consider "Church Approved" ?
John
Below I have cut and pasted Norms and Process for Judging Private Revelations,
In the case of The Missionary Servants of Holy Love this visionary has no approval at any level of the Church and seems to be hostile whenever the Bishop offers a negative view.
now in the case of Garabandal Mary told the children that they must be obedient to the religious authorities which they did, Early in 1966 Conchita was called to the Vatican. Gardinal Ottaviani, the pro-Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Holy Office) had instructed Fr. Luna: "With or without the permission of the bishop, bring the young girls to me." During January 12-16 she was interviewed for 2 1/2 hours by the Cardinal and saw other members of the Congregation, afterwards she saw the Pope and gave him the date of the Great Miracle to come. She then paid a visit to Padre Pio, the famous stigmatist. Upon her return, at an audience in St. Peter's, the Holy Father came to her and announced joyfully in a clear voice, "Conchita, I, the Pope, bless you and with me the whole Church blesses you."
This show that Garabandal is true, each visionary must be looked at and discerned
Norms and Process for Judging Private Revelations
Realism
During the past several years, the number of reported apparitions has been greatly increasing. While concentrating on Marian apparitions, our purpose here is to view all popular piety in the context of the total picture of Catholic faith, devotion, and discipleship. Our approach is to strike a happy medium between vain credulity and sterile skepticism. Perhaps we could label our position as one of critical or moderate realism.
Authentic Visions
Visionaries or seers behold an object not naturally visible to other persons. An authentic supernatural vision or apparition is different from illusions or hallucinations that result from pathological conditions or even diabolical intervention. An authentic vision is a charism -- gratia gratis data -- given to an individual or group for the spiritual good of others and/or for the Church as a whole.
The Church's Voice
On February 25, 1978, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) issued "Norms of the Congregation for Proceeding in Judging Alleged Apparitions and Revelations." Pope Paul VI had approved these norms the preceding day.
Although this document uses the term supernaturalitas, we believe that what is meant is something supernatural in the mode in which it has occured rather than supernatural in its essence or substance.
The Bishop's Role
When an allegedly supernatural event has occurred, it is the responsibility of the local bishop to conduct an investigation, usually through a committee of experts.
Theologically and canonically, the bishop is entrusted with the role of "oversight" of the diocese. This role of "oversight" is based on the bishop's responsibility both for public worship and for the religious teaching which occurs in the diocese.
Norms for Discernment
1) The first norm for evaluating miraculous events is that there be moral certainty, or at least great probability, that something miraculous has occurred. The commission may interview the visionaries, call other witnesses, visit the site of the events.
2) The second norm deals with the personal qualities of the subjects who claim to have had the apparition; they must be mentally sound, honest, sincere, of upright conduct, obedient to ecclesiastical authorities, able to return to the normal practices of the faith (such as participation in communal worship, reception of the sacraments).
3) A third category deals with the content of the revelation or message: it must be theologically acceptable and morally sound and free of error.
4) The fourth positive criterion is that the apparition must result in positive spiritual assets which endure (prayer, conversion, increase of charity).
These four criteria may also be restated in a negative way. There must be no doubt that what is occurring is truly exceptional and beyond human explanation. There must be no doctrinal error attributed to God or to the Blessed Virgin Mary or some other saint. The third negative criterion is that there must be no hint of financial advantage to anyone connected with the apparitions, nor must any of the visionaries be accused of serious moral improprieties at the time when the visions were being received, nor may there be evidence of mental illness or psychopathic tendencies.
Verdicts
At the end of the investigative process, the committee may submit to the bishop(s) one of the following verdicts or conjectural judgements: constat de supernaturalitate (the event shows all the signs of being an authentic or a truly miraculous intervention from heaven); constat de non supernaturalitate (the alleged apparition is clearly not miraculous or there are not sufficient signs manifesting it to be so); non constat de supernaturalitate (it is not evident whether or not the alleged apparition is authentic).
The Bishop's decision regarding alleged apparitions usually does not attempt to interpret or give the spiritual significance of the events, nor to interpret the messages or identify the heavenly persons who may have appeared.
Public Worship
All such investigations are conducted by the bishop to determine whether public worship should continue to be held in those places. It could happen that the investigative committee could conclude that at this time it is able neither to make a clearly positive nor a clearly negative judgement. If the matter is still being investigated, the bishop could permit public worship, while at the same time continuing to be vigilant that the devotions do not wander into deviant directions.
Our Responsibility
As the bishops are entrusted with these responsibilities stemming from the nature of their office, so there are fundamental responsibilities on the part of the members of the diocese. First, they are to obey their bishops when the latter act as Christ's representatives (canon 212), that is, when they teach formally or establish binding discipline as pastors of a particular church. This obedience owed to the bishops in their capacity as leaders of particular churches is intended to promote the common good. Canon 753 also speaks of the "religious assent" owed to the bishops' teaching authority, which means a special quality of respect and gratitude, along with critical awareness and good will. Hence, there should be intelligent obedience to ecclesiastical authority in the matter of alleged apparitions.
Publications
A new era opened in the canonical regulations dealing with apparitions occurred in 1969. In that year, Pope Paul VI deleted certain canons of the 1917 Code of Canon Law. These canons had specifically forbidden the publication of all books or pamphlets about new apparitions, revelations, visions, prophecies, and miracles, or which introduce new devotions, even though justified as private. Such prohibitions are not part of the 1983 Code of Canon Law. So the many reports of Marian apparitions may in part be due to the new freedom to discuss freely and to report such occurrences to the media, without first submitting them to ecclesiastical approbation.
The Foundations of Our Faith
Our faith cannot rest on private revelations and apparitions. Even with properly approved apparitions, we must maintain a proper perspective -- viewing them as an assistance to nourish our faith in the central dogmas of the Incarnation, the Trinity and the Eucharist. In their 1973 pastoral letter, Behold Your Mother: Woman of Faith, the American bishops called authenticated appearances of Mary "providential happenings [which] serve as reminders of basic Christian themes: such as prayer, penance, and the necessity of the sacraments" (# 100).
This text is based on "Discerning the Miraculous: Norms for Judging Apparitions and Private Revelations" by Frederick Jelly, O.P. (1993); and "Canonical Considerations regarding Alleged Apparitions" by Fr. Michael Smith Foster, JCD (1995). It was abridged, combined and rearranged by Fr. Johann G. Roten, S.M.
also
Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God..." 1 John 4:1-2
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With such a dramatic increase in the number of reported visions and locutions, anyone interested in exploring and understanding this phenomena needs to proceed with due caution. One should take neither the content of the information provided nor the visionary seriously unless the following questions can be affirmatively addressed:
does the person claiming to have visions or locutions possess sound judgment and common sense?
does the person involved appear well-balanced?
does the person involved appear to be sincere and humble rather than given to exaggeration and story-telling?
does the person involved contact appropriate religious and medical authorities and seek guidance?
does the information provided by the vision or locution agree with generally accepted articles of religious faith and morals?
as a result of the apparition, does healthy religious devotion and increased spirituality result?
If all of these questions can be answered in the affirmative, then the apparition merits further consideration.
In addition to these preliminary techniques for discerning the potential veracity of purported visionaries, the following "rules of thumb" will assist in the process of discernment:
Has the "visionary" ever accepted personal favors or money in exchange for "prophetic" insights? If they have, then there's a problem with the "visionary" and the "vision".
Does the visionary accept the possibility that the "visions" could be a delusion? If so, then the "visionary" should be viewed as realistic and the "visions" may, in fact, be real.
Does the "visionary" obey when silenced by the local episcopal authorities such as the Bishop? True visionaries in the past have always obeyed the local episcopal authorities when requested to do so.
Does the "visionary" appear to remain calm and at peace despite the nature of the "visions". If not, then there's likely to be something amiss.
Does the "visionary" lead a moral and Christian life? While moral certitude isn't required for a "visionary", it is nonetheless desireable particularly after the purported "visions" have begun. The failure of the "visionary" to amend a disreputable life should cause the purported "visions" to be questioned.
Finally, before reaching a conclusion about a "visionary", pray for direction from the Holy Spirit - sometimes prayer alone will help finally resolve a troubling "vision" and "visionary".
Grace Mizzi
www.mmponline.org
Send Oh Lord Holy Apostles into your church“Christ has no body but yours, no hands butyours, no feet but yours.Yours are the eyes through which Christ’scompassion must look upon the world.Yours are the feet with which He is to go about
doing good.Yours are the hands with which He is to bless us now.”St. Theresa of Avila |
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EdWasHere
Formation
43 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2008 : 3:46:00 PM
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The "2012" prediction is rubbish. Trust in the Lord and be safe.
I've also heard Humpty Dumpty will fall off the wall this summer.
Walk with Jesus Christ and don't be bothered by this rubbish. |
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