Marian Catholic Family Forum
Marian Catholic Family Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Catholicism
 Pro-Life
 For an 'Obamacon,' Communion Denied
 Forum Locked
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

GScheid
Mary's Servant


USA
407 Posts

Posted - Jun 03 2008 :  10:16:19 AM  Show Profile Send GScheid a Private Message
For an 'Obamacon,' Communion Denied

By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Tuesday, June 3, 2008; A15

Word spread like wildfire in Catholic circles: Douglas Kmiec, a staunch Republican, firm foe of abortion and veteran of the Reagan Justice Department, had been denied Communion.

His sin? Kmiec, a Catholic who can cite papal pronouncements with the facility of a theological scholar, shocked old friends and adversaries alike earlier this year by endorsing Barack Obama for president. For at least one priest, Kmiec's support for a pro-choice politician made him a willing participant in a grave moral evil.

Kmiec was denied Communion in April at a Mass for a group of Catholic business people he later addressed at dinner. The episode has not received wide attention outside the Catholic world, but it is the opening shot in an argument that could have a large impact on this year's presidential campaign: Is it legitimate for bishops and priests to deny Communion to those supporting candidates who favor abortion rights?

A version of this argument roiled the 2004 campaign when some, though not most, Catholic bishops suggested that John Kerry and other pro-choice Catholic politicians should be denied Communion because of their views on abortion.

The Kmiec incident poses the question in an extreme form: He is not a public official but a voter expressing a preference. Moreover, Kmiec -- a law professor at Pepperdine University and once dean of Catholic University's law school -- is a long-standing critic of the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision.

Kmiec, who was head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel in the late 1980s, is supporting Obama despite the candidate's position on abortion, not because of it, partly in the hope that Obama's emphasis on personal responsibility in sexual matters might change the nature of the nation's argument on life issues.

Kmiec has drawn attention because he is one of the nation's leading "Obamacons," conservatives who find Obama's call for a new approach to politics appealing. Kmiec started life as a Democrat. His father was a soldier in the late Mayor Richard J. Daley's Chicago political machine, and Kmiec's earliest political energies were devoted to Robert F. Kennedy's 1968 campaign.

But like many Catholic Democrats, Kmiec was profoundly attracted to Ronald Reagan. For him, five words in Reagan's 1980 acceptance speech summarized the essence of a Catholic view of politics: "family, work, neighborhood, peace and freedom."

In an interview over the weekend, Kmiec argued that 35 years after Roe, opponents of abortion need to contemplate whether "a legal prohibition" of abortion "is the only way to promote a culture of life."

"To think you have done a generous thing for your neighbor or that you have built up a culture of life just because you voted for a candidate who says in his brochure that he wants to overturn Roe v. Wade is far too thin an understanding of the Catholic faith," he said. Kmiec, a critic of the Bush administration's Iraq policy, added that Catholics should heed "the broad social teaching of the church," including its views on war.

Kmiec shared with me the name of the priest who denied him Communion and a letter of apology from the organizers of the event, but he requested that I not name the priest to protect the cleric from public attack.

The priest's actions are almost certainly out of line with the policy of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. In their statement"Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship," issued last November, the bishops said: "A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position."

The "if" phrase in that carefully negotiated sentence suggests that Catholics can support pro-choice candidates, provided the purpose of their vote is not to promote abortion.

Already, Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann of Kansas City has played an indirect role in the 2008 campaign by calling on Kathleen Sebelius, the popular Democratic governor of Kansas who has been mentioned as a possible Obama running mate, to stop taking Communion because of her "actions in support of legalized abortion."

But because Kmiec is a private citizen and has such a long history of embracing Catholic teaching on abortion, denying him Communion for political reasons may spark an even greater outcry inside the church.

Kmiec says he is grateful because the episode reminded him of the importance of the Eucharist in his spiritual life, and because he hopes it will alert others to the dangers of "using Communion as a weapon."

“Everyone needs thirty minutes of personal prayer time each day, unless they are too busy to pray—in which case, they need an hour!”
Saint Francis de Sales

Google AdSense

USA
Mountain View


GScheid
Mary's Servant



USA
407 Posts

Posted - Jun 03 2008 :  10:17:43 AM  Show Profile Send GScheid a Private Message
If he is publicly supporting a pro-abortion candidate and worse a candidate who supports late-term infanticide--he should be denied Communion. I am not sure how you can promote the 'Culture of Life' by supporting someone in favor of death? Is Kmiec relying on some sort of policy from the liberal USCCB or the Holy Father himself? I think if allegiance to the Holy Father we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Gerry

“Everyone needs thirty minutes of personal prayer time each day, unless they are too busy to pray—in which case, they need an hour!”
Saint Francis de Sales
Go to Top of Page

Doc
Formation



USA
35 Posts

Posted - Jun 03 2008 :  1:24:52 PM  Show Profile Send Doc a Private Message
Anyone who is a Catholic is automatically excommunicated Latae Sententiae (by the act itself) - if they advocate in anyway abortion - privately or publicly God knows the human heart so while people may be fooled, God is not mocked. No formal decree has to be given to the person; it is an act which occurs automatically. Thereafter, one is 'outside' of the Church until such time as they repent and make a good Confession with a firm purpose of amendment never to sin again.

One cannot be pro-choice and Catholic period. One cannot be pro anything against the official teachings of the Church which has Christ's authority and be Catholic...whether a Cardinal, Bishop, Priest or anyone else. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven." Not my words; they're HIS.

Doc


Jesus, I Trust in You.
Go to Top of Page

GScheid
Mary's Servant



USA
407 Posts

Posted - Jun 03 2008 :  2:56:39 PM  Show Profile Send GScheid a Private Message
I guess many in this 'Dictatorship of Relativism' think they can make this stuff up as they go along. Must be nice!

“Everyone needs thirty minutes of personal prayer time each day, unless they are too busy to pray—in which case, they need an hour!”
Saint Francis de Sales
Go to Top of Page

GScheid
Mary's Servant



USA
407 Posts

Posted - Jun 03 2008 :  3:22:19 PM  Show Profile Send GScheid a Private Message
And we can always re-read what Father Corapi iterated:

We share in the good and the evil of those we place in office. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that, although "sin is a personal act, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them" (CCC #1868). We can be accomplices in the sins of others

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;

• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;

• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so; (author's emphasis)

• by protecting evil-doers" (CCC #1868).

The Catechism is thus consistent with traditional Catholic teaching which held that there are nine ways we can be an accessory to another's sin:

1. By counsel. I.e., "I think you should have an abortion; go ahead and have the abortion. It will help preserve your lifestyle."

2. By command. I.e., Telling your employee, "Have an abortion, you may lose your job if you don't." Or telling your teen-age child, "Get rid of it or don't come home." Or telling your girlfriend, "You're having an abortion and that's all there is to it."

3. By consent. I.e., "If you and your partner feel it's the best thing, go ahead and have a sexual relationship, get married — even if you're both of the same sex, etc. It's nobody's business."

4. By provocation. I.e., "Have the abortion! Aren't you in charge of your own life. The pope is old and sick and who cares what he says anyhow."

5. By praise or flattery. I.e., "Oh, senator, you are so courageous and kind in defending a woman's 'right' to an abortion."

6. By concealment. I.e., the pastor allows the senator, judge, president, etc. who has voted for, or otherwise promoted, abortion, euthanasia, human cloning, same-sex marriage, etc. to appear to be in good standing, when, in fact, they have caused grave public scandal by their actions. When the sin is public, the redress must be public. Although I don't disagree with the courageous bishops who would deny such persons Communion, I do believe that the "confrontation" should take place, without question, long before they arrive at the altar rail.

7. By participation. I.e., "I'll drive you to the clinic. You need that abortion to be able to continue your lifestyle."

8. By silence. I.e., you refuse to speak out against what is a clear violation of human rights, an incredible persecution and prejudice against a class of human beings (the unborn). You hide behind the Supreme Court's unjust and inherently illicit decision on abortion, saying it's the law of the land, when in fact it is the subversion and perversion of authentic law. The Nazi SS officers tried for war crimes used a similar defense, saying they were only following orders. They hanged them, guilty as charged!

9. By defense of the evil. I.e., "It prevents child abuse by eliminating unwanted children; Women are more in charge of their lives, more liberated; it's so much more sophisticated and educated a thing to do…," etc., etc.

“Everyone needs thirty minutes of personal prayer time each day, unless they are too busy to pray—in which case, they need an hour!”
Saint Francis de Sales

Edited by - GScheid on Jun 03 2008 3:22:43 PM
Go to Top of Page

GScheid
Mary's Servant



USA
407 Posts

Posted - Jun 04 2008 :  08:01:51 AM  Show Profile Send GScheid a Private Message
Who are we supposed to vote for? Are any of the candidates pro-Life? I dont think so

“Everyone needs thirty minutes of personal prayer time each day, unless they are too busy to pray—in which case, they need an hour!”
Saint Francis de Sales
Go to Top of Page

DeniseLawson
Moderator



USA
810 Posts

Posted - Jun 05 2008 :  05:27:14 AM  Show Profile Send DeniseLawson a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GScheid

Who are we supposed to vote for? Are any of the candidates pro-Life? I dont think so

“Everyone needs thirty minutes of personal prayer time each day, unless they are too busy to pray—in which case, they need an hour!”
Saint Francis de Sales



John McCain has the strongest pro-life record of any of the candidates.

That said, however...it has been stated before by the bishops that voting for a pro-abortion candidate is not necessarily grounds for excommunication. It is dependent upon why you are voting for them. Voting for them because they are pro-abortion is arguably grounds for an automatic excommunication. Beyond that, though, the circumstances when it is ok and when it is not ok to vote for a pro-abortion politician get pretty murky pretty fast. It is, however, possible - at least in theory - to vote for a pro-abortion candidate and not be in danger of excommunication if there is a compelling, proportionate reason to do so. The question, however, is what constitutes a compelling proportionate reason? And in the answer, I suspect, lies the rub.

Jesus meek and humble of heart, make my heart like yours.
Go to Top of Page

GScheid
Mary's Servant



USA
407 Posts

Posted - Jun 05 2008 :  09:20:36 AM  Show Profile Send GScheid a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by DeniseLawson

It is, however, possible - at least in theory - to vote for a pro-abortion candidate and not be in danger of excommunication if there is a compelling, proportionate reason to do so.



Seems a very fine line--if you go by what Fr Corapi said you cannot vote for Obama. To me, Obama is pro-Abortion, even late term killings. It seems more continuance of the 'Culture of Death.'


Edited by - GScheid on Jun 06 2008 08:26:49 AM
Go to Top of Page

Doc
Formation



USA
35 Posts

Posted - Jun 05 2008 :  11:54:59 AM  Show Profile Send Doc a Private Message
Voting for a Catholic should be really easy...for all Christians for that matter. Look at the primary issue, abortion. What is the candidates stance on abortion? I have spoken to several people who claim to be good Christians (some even Bible thumpers quoting verse after verse - my neighbor downstairs drives me nuts with it). Shockingly, they tell me they are voting for 'Obama'. When I ask why, they inevitably tell me because he will bring change - end the war in Iraq, improve the economy, concentrate on global warming and on and on. One told me because he's young and another because he's black. He will also enforce gay 'marriages' and a few other things which continue to tear at the nuclear family as intended by God. Our children are lost souls out of control and things will worsen. Already they have porn shoved at them, music videos encouraging them to murder victims even police officers so their frustrations are taken out on the screen. Columbine ring a bell with anyone? Virginia tech maybe? They come home to an empty house and then look for entertainment and nurturance which they seek and find in gangs of like-minded teens. Schools are a shambles, the culture is in turmoil and everyone wondering what happened.

God has been removed from the American fabric slowly but surely. He's leaving us to our own devices since He honors our free will. I believe it was that wonderful Evangelist Billy Graham who when asked where God was during Columbine stated 'Right there...but He couldn't go into the school because it was against the law - He wasn't allowed paraphrase). But, with cloning and altering life forms, God will intervene make no mistake. He has 'tolerated' abortion up until now but cloning and stem cell abominations such as 'creating' a new life form are a test for this Nation. If we fail it, we will reap the consequnces and it looks like we will since the research is moving ahead. Combining animal and human cells - what in the world have we come to? The First Amendement has been so over-worked and abused that one can do almost anything they wish without consequences since they can claim constitutional protection.

When I tell them the Candidates' stance on abortion, they either shrug it off or simply do not respond. This is shocking to me. How can one profess to be a follower of Jesus and vote pro-choice? "You cannot serve God and mammon" we read in Scripture. "You are either for Me or against Me" says Jesus. "Be hot or be cold but not lukewarm or I will vomit you out of My mouth" says the Lord.

What will it take to get our attention as to what the real issue is - murdering a human baby every four minutes legally since 1973 is an abomination before the Throne of the Almighty God and if we do not stop, we will pay the severest of consequences. We may anyway in the form of chastisements such as we have seen in the weather (how about a couple of Katrina's) and economy (1929 mean anything to anyone). God is not mocked be certain of that. What we sow we shall reap. As He gives in abundance so He will punish in abundance. It is up to us not Him.

Well, excuse me...I want to go and propose to my Teddy Bear. We have been together a long time and we think its time we married. Don't worry...it's covered under the First Amendment. Wish us well.

Doc

Jesus, I Trust in You.
Go to Top of Page

Pro-life Sarah
Moderator



653 Posts

Posted - Jun 05 2008 :  10:51:48 PM  Show Profile Send Pro-life Sarah a Private Message
Well, what did Teddy say? :)

Take Care and God Bless,
Sarah

Please say one Hail Mary a day for the intentions all forum members
Go to Top of Page

DeniseLawson
Moderator



USA
810 Posts

Posted - Jun 06 2008 :  03:29:58 AM  Show Profile Send DeniseLawson a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GScheid

quote:
Originally posted by DeniseLawson

It is, however, possible - at least in theory - to vote for a pro-abortion candidate and not be in danger of excommunication if there is a compelling, proportionate reason to do so.



Seems a very fine line--if you go by what Fr Corapi said you cannot vote for Obama. To me, Obama seems for pro-Abortion even late term killings. Seems more continuance of the 'Culture of Death.'

“Everyone needs thirty minutes of personal prayer time each day, unless they are too busy to pray—in which case, they need an hour!”
Saint Francis de Sales



I wasn't going on specific candidates. All I'm saying is that, at least in theory, it is possible to vote for a pro-choice candidate if the circumstances are right.

Jesus meek and humble of heart, make my heart like yours.
Go to Top of Page

GScheid
Mary's Servant



USA
407 Posts

Posted - Jun 06 2008 :  08:37:44 AM  Show Profile Send GScheid a Private Message
Maybe, but that seems like 'relativity' who is saying that is right? Will the Catholic Bishops come out 'endorsing' someone? In some form or another they are both not pro-Life and one seemingly far from it with his support of partial birth abortion and seemed upset when it was voted down. Something can't be right by voting for someone who supports murder--even if everything else is good. How many thought Hitler (fill-in any number of other guys) was doing great things for his country, but only if he wasnt out murdering a portion of the population.

Gerry
+JMJ+

“Everyone needs thirty minutes of personal prayer time each day, unless they are too busy to pray—in which case, they need an hour!”
Saint Francis de Sales
Go to Top of Page

Pro-life Sarah
Moderator



653 Posts

Posted - Jun 06 2008 :  10:56:25 PM  Show Profile Send Pro-life Sarah a Private Message
Yes Gerry. And this is what I say an awful lot to people and they get awful angry and cry it isn't the same thing. I have news for them; it is.

Take Care and God Bless,
Sarah

Please say one Hail Mary a day for the intentions all forum members
Go to Top of Page

DeniseLawson
Moderator



USA
810 Posts

Posted - Jun 08 2008 :  1:29:05 PM  Show Profile Send DeniseLawson a Private Message
Well, here's another thought, Gerry. Which one is more pro-life? An example I've used before - if you have two candidates who support abortion - and one goes even further and supports infanticide, partial birth abortion, euthanasia, etc, while the other does not - is it really that hard for you to choose? Do you honestly think it is better to sit by in silence and risk the chance of that second individual being elected because you and other pro-lifers chose to remain silent rather than vote for his opponent, who - although he may support some forms of abortion - was much more limited in what forms of abortion he would support?

I look at their voting records on the following website: You must be logged in to see this link. I understand that McCain may not be as pro-life as we would hope for, but compared to Obama - he is 67% more likely to vote in favor of right to life issues. That, to me at least, makes it no problem for me to vote for him over Obama.

Jesus meek and humble of heart, make my heart like yours.
Go to Top of Page

Pro-life Sarah
Moderator



653 Posts

Posted - Jun 08 2008 :  2:06:44 PM  Show Profile Send Pro-life Sarah a Private Message
That is how I vote....and why my first choice wasn't McCain but Huckabee. But we've got who we've got on the "pro-life" side, and at least there is someone against most forms of abortion. I think we need to fight for smaller victories in such cases. Hitler et all was able to make the HOlocaust happen in steps so to speak - with smaller lies first and then more smaller lies and then biger and bigger lies. Perhaps the lies need to be revealed in the same manner with someone who will do it a little at a time rather than not at all. At least McCain would appoint pro -life judges if the need should arise. We know Obama wouldn't do that. He doesn't want his daughters "punished for the rest of their lives" if they get pregnant because of their own choicse. Of course, if there was someone who was more pro-life than McCain, I'd suggest giving full-fledged support to him/her.... but right now we don't have that option, so Denise, I think you may be right.

Take Care and God Bless,
Sarah

Please say one Hail Mary a day for the intentions all forum members
Go to Top of Page

GScheid
Mary's Servant



USA
407 Posts

Posted - Jun 09 2008 :  08:38:26 AM  Show Profile Send GScheid a Private Message
I don't know what I would do right now. And yes, i've considered not voting at all for a presidential candidate. Interested in how the Church will come out on this one?

Gerry

“Everyone needs thirty minutes of personal prayer time each day, unless they are too busy to pray—in which case, they need an hour!”
Saint Francis de Sales
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 Forum Locked
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Marian Catholic Family Forum © 2000-2008 ForumCo.com - The Forum Company Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 1.73 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000
RSS Feed 1 RSS Feed 2
Powered by ForumCo 2000-2008
TOS - AUP - URA - Privacy Policy